Meetings

3.1 The Committee considered and agreed its legacy report for the successor Committee in the Sixth Senedd.

3.2 The Committee noted that the report would be laid before the Senedd and published by the end of term.

5.1 The Chair advised Members that this was the final meeting of the Public Accounts Committee in the Fifth Senedd. He thanked the current and past Members for their work and engagement with the Committee.

5.2 The past Members are:

·         Mike Hedges;

·         Neil McEvoy;

·         Lee Waters,;

·         Jack Sargeant;

·         Neil Hamilton;

·         Adam Price; and

·         Angela Burns.

5.3 The Chair also remembered Mohammad Asghar, who sadly passed away in June 2020. He added that this and the predecessor Committees was blessed to have had Oscar as a Member.

5.4 Members of the Committee and the Auditor General for Wales paid tribute to Nick Ramsay MS for the consensual, inclusive and innovative way in which he had chaired the Committee over the past five years. They all wished him well for his future.

5.5 The Chair also paid tribute to the support received from the Auditor General, past and present, and his team, the Clerks and all the supporting staff within the Senedd Commission.

5.6 The Chair wished everyone well for the future.

The Committee discussed a number of issues relating to completing its work ahead of the end of the 5^th Senedd and agreed to advise the Llywydd that the petitions process should be closed during dissolution or during any time in which regular Senedd business is not taking place.

The Committee considered a further analysis on the recent increase in the usage of the Senedd’s petitions process. In response to a significant increase in the number of petitions reaching the 5000 signature threshold for consideration of a debate, which means that the demand for potential debates on petitions is now far exceeding the Senedd’s ability to schedule them, the Committee agreed to change the threshold to 10,000 signatures, with effect from 1 December 2020 for all petitions collecting signatures after that date. The Committee agreed to review the threshold again at the end of this Senedd with a view to making appropriate recommendations for the sixth Senedd.

4.1 The Committee discussed its working practices and procedures for handling reports from the Commissioner for Standards.

The Committee agreed to hold an increased number of meetings in the autumn term in order to facilitate ongoing scrutiny of the Welsh Government’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic. The Committee agreed to schedule two meetings of the full Committee with the First Minister, as well as two meetings attended by a sub-group of the Committee’s membership with the Counsel General in respect of his responsibilities to oversee Covid recovery work.

The Committee considered various petitions relating to COVID-19 with more than 5000 signatures and agreed to write to the Business Committee to request that time be made available before the summer recess for a debate on petition P-05-967 Welsh Government to amend its NDR relief policy to help keep Debenhams stores open in Wales. The Committee also expressed a desire for debates to be scheduled on issues not related to COVID-19 as soon as possible.

1.1    Members agreed a change to the Committee’s working practices, to better facilitate remote working arrangements.

9.1 Members considered a change to the remit of the Committee.

3.1 The Chair requested that officials vacate the meeting.  The Committee discussed recent correspondence and agreed that the Chair would respond.

7. Members of the Committee received a training session on the role of Accounting Officers.

The Committee considered a paper about eligibility for signing petitions to the Assembly. In response to some concerns raised with the Committee, Members discussed whether people living outside of Wales should continue to be able to sign petitions.

The Committee decided not to propose any restrictions on the ability of people to sign petitions, in the context of other recent changes made to the rules governing the submission of petitions and the collection of signatures.

In relation to petitions with more than 5000 signatures, Members agreed to consider the number of signatures gathered from within Wales when deciding whether to request time for a Plenary debate in the future.

3.2.1 The paper was noted.

6.1 Members agreed to respond to the First Minister to confirm their commitment to co-operation in order to ensure that Ministers are able to attend Committee when necessary.

PAC(5)-11-19 Paper 3 – Remit paper

7.1 Member considered and noted the remit of the Committee.

6.1 Adam Price AM referred the Members to the recent decision made by the High Court in relation to the dismissal of Carl Sargeant. He expressed his concern that some questions remained in people’s minds on the Welsh Government’s judgement. As such, he proposed that the Public Accounts Committee request a copy of the leak investigation report, undertaken by the Permanent Secretary, with appropriate redactions. He was supported by Neil Hamilton AM and Mohammed Asghar AM.

6.2 Jenny Rathbone AM was not convinced that the Public Accounts Committee was the right Committee to request this document and asked for the discussion to be deferred to enable her to consider the High Court decision and take appropriate advice. Vikki Howells AM and Rhianon Passmore AM supported her.

6.3 Nick Ramsay AM, the Committee Chair, supported Jenny Rathbone’s suggestion and it was agreed that the item would be added to the agenda for the Committee meeting on 29 April.

The paper was noted and the Committee discussed publishing an annual report on the petitions process in the future.

2.1 Members noted that the Standards Commissioner has indicated that he proposes that provision 4 in the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure 2009 is utilised to appoint an Acting Commissioner to handle a particular complaint.

2.2 Members considered and noted the issue.

Kate Faragher, CEO, BeSpokeSkills

4.1 Kate Faragher discussed working practices and procedures with Committee Members

Kate Faragher, CEO, BeSpokeSkills

7.1        The motion was agreed.

PAC(5)-27-17 Paper 3 – Briefings for Committee Papers

6.1 Members considered a paper on the briefing material they receive to assist with their preparation for evidence gathering sessions.

Kate Faragher, CEO, BeSpokeSkills

6.1 Kate Faragher, CEO, BeSpokeSkills ran a training course for Committee Members

5.1 The correspondence was noted by the Committee

Kate Faragher, CEO, BeSpokeSkills

3.1 Kate Faragher from BeSpoke Skills gave a training session to Committee Members

PAC(5)-01-17 Paper 1

3.1 Members considered the paper and discussed the suggestions contained within it.

3.2 The Clerks will prepare a further paper and include examples of different working models to enable Members to have a further discussion.

PAC(5)-01-17 Paper 8

8.1 Members agreed the draft letter which will be sent in advance of the incoming Permanent Secretary taking up her appointment on 6 February 2017.

5.1 The Committee discussed media handling.

Kate Faragher – Bespokeskills

6.1 The Chair welcomed Kate Faragher from Bespokeskills to Committee.

6.2 Kate Faragher gave Members feedback on their role as PAC Members and the way the Committee is working following her earlier session held as part of the Committee’s induction programme in September 2016.

6.3 Members requested a further session on their performance in summer 2017.

5.1 The Committee agreed that Paul Davies AM be elected to act as a temporary Chair in accordance with paragraph 10.2 of the complaints procedure.

3.3.1 The paper was noted by the Committee.

Steve O’Donoghue, Director of Finance and Human Resources, Wales Audit Office

Kevin Thomas, Director of Corporate Services, Wales Audit Office

9.1 The Wales Audit Office provided Members with an introduction to the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013.

6.1.a The Committee noted the letter from the Llywydd regarding Committee statements in Plenary.

2.4a The Committee noted the letter from the Llywydd regarding committee statements in Plenary.

CLA(5)-04-16 - Paper 12 - Correspondence from the Llywydd, 21 July 2016

4.5a The Committee noted the correspondence and agreed to write to the Llywydd to note its support for the greater integration between Plenary and committee work.

4.5b The Committee agreed to request time for a statement on its work on the Wales Bill ahead of its visit to the House of Lords Constitution Committee.

PET(5)01-16 - Paper 1 (Briefing Paper - Petitions Committee Working Practices and Procedures)

Paper 4 – Committee responsibilities and early business

7.1 The Committee considered its items of early business, and discussed proposals for future inquiries.

Georgina Haarhoff – Head of Tax Policy and Legislation, Welsh Government

Ed Sherriff – Head of Fiscal Strategy, Welsh Government

Richard Clarke – Operations Policy Manager, Welsh Government

5.1 Members received a briefing on tax devolution in Wales from: Georgina Haarhoff – Head of Tax Policy and Legislation, Welsh Government, Ed Sherriff – Head of Fiscal Strategy, Welsh Government, and Richard Clarke – Operations Policy Manager, Welsh Government.

Paper 4 – Committee responsibilities and early business

5.1 The Committee noted its responsibilities and held an initial consideration of its early business, to be returned to in its next meeting.

The Committee agreed to meet at 8.30am on Tuesday mornings during sitting weeks for the remainder of the term, but to look at meeting at an alternative time in the new term so as to have regard for the family responsibilities of Members. Business Managers agreed to return to the matter at a future meeting as part of the discussion on the committee timetable as a whole.

Business Managers agreed to meet in private for any future meetings where matters relating to the internal business of the committee, or of the Assembly will be discussed, and noted that the resolution agreed at the start of the meeting provided for it to do so. However, there was consensus across the Committee that the committee should aim to meet in public more frequently in future.

Business Managers agreed that the minutes of private meetings would be published in English and Welsh within 1 week of their being agreed by the Committee.